Third Loop wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:26 pm

Caylus Ark wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:26 am I have another comment on the schizophrenia thing. I randomly came across this post, it's really interesting.


https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... nner-voice

Thanks for the article, there is no new information there for me but it may be useful to someone.

I am approaching the 25th anniversary of my SZ diagnosis. I would like to share some insight I have gained about my experience. It takes a great deal to surprise me these days but I have found that each time I reach an equilibrium point where I am comfortable and functioning some new input/experience occurs that adds anew level/dynamic that requires a reassessment. This article reminded me of an example of this.

I was comfortable believing that the voices was just an internal monologue or a manifestation of my subconscious. I was managing with those beliefs until one day I had a voice speaking to me in a language I don't recognize. Then I was like WTF. I am still not sure it's a language or a type of "baby-talk" It appears to have the structure of a language but I'm not sure. Can my sub-conscious invent a language?

I can describe my relationship with my voices, the vast majority of the time my reaction to my voices is one of two ways, depending on my mood or the nature of the voice I will either ignore it, or repeat an expletive filled mantra I have developed. On occasion if I'm in the mood and it's the right voice I will have a conversation with it. This can lead to some interesting insights, but can also be problematic. On occasion I forget my surroundings and realize I talking to a voice in public. When I catch myself doing that I'll look around to see if anyone noticed, and the odd time I see someone giving me a sideways glance, causing me to be embarrassed at being "that" guy.

Caylus Ark wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:26 am I have another comment on the schizophrenia thing. I randomly came across this post, it's really interesting.


https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... nner-voice

This is an interesting question. Having worked with schizophrenia-diagnosed patients in a mental health center, and having read philosophy books about positive ways of looking at schizophrenia, I considered it before.

“Schizophrenic” voices are inner voices in the sense that they are only being experienced subjectively, that is, in one person’s experience, whereas the person standing next to them cannot hear the voices.

However, that is a quality of all our thoughts. We can hear them; others cannot hear them.

At this point, it would be helpful to consider this: there seems to be some confusion in our mental health programs and institutions about the point of view that “if I am hearing voices then I might have schizophrenia.” Or a less strong claim: “if I am hearing voices that I do not identify as mine, then I might have schizophrenia.”

And yet, in our culture, we are hearing more and more references in popular song lyrics to the ‘voices in our heads.’ For example there’s a song by Bruno Mars called “Voices in my head.”

So there seems to be a growing awareness that we all have ‘voices in our heads.’

Then the question comes up: if we all have inner voices, do we all have schizophrenia?

If we are hearing our inner voices without identifying with them—that is, without saying “that’s me talking” or “these are my voices”—then other people might say we have schizophrenia. But that’s not necessarily true. A lady named Eleanor Longden gave a Ted talk about her experience being diagnosed with schizophrenia, which was a negative experience, for her. Later, she found relief when she was able to relate to her voices as aspects of her self, specifically her unresolved emotions.

“The most hostile and aggressive voices,” says Eleanor, “actually represented the parts of me that had been hurt the most profoundly. And as such, it was these voices that needed to be shown the most compassion and care.”

All of this ties into a theory I would put to you—a theory about schizophrenia. I say “theory” because it’s not confirmed by science but only makes sense in terms of the information presented here.

When someone meditates—when, for example, a monk/nun meditates—he/she hears all their inner voices, but there is no problem; there is no distress. What is characteristic of people diagnosed with schizophrenia, in the popular portrayal of them (the stereotype), is that they are in distress. They are having a distressing experience in relationship to the inner voices.

Then we can ask: what’s the difference between these two—the monk and the schizophrenia patient? The difference is where our identity rests. In the monk/meditator’s experience, there is a kind of stability in their identity, in their sense of “I,” from which they can relate to the inner voices. The inner voices may be unruly and chaotic, but, by contrast, there is a stability of identity that the meditator has found. We could say that stability of identity comes from being the watcher/witness of the inner voices. This is why the meditator can sit so calmly and quietly while all the voices talk.

By contrast, the one diagnosed with schizophrenia seems to not have this ‘stability of identity.’ Rather than having a foundation, something sturdy, from which they can relate to their inner voices, this person seems to be pulled in and out of the dialog of the inner voices; that is, they are distressed or disturbed by what the voices are saying, and having reactions to what the voices are saying. They do not necessarily feel identified with the voices—they do not feel “I am the one talking”—but they don’t necessarily ‘know who they are’ in a way that allows them to detach and watch the voices pass by.

Perhaps you see where this is going…. The schizophrenia-patient, the one in distress in relationship to their inner voices, is simply at a stage where they haven’t begun to relate to their inner voices from that stable identity of the watcher or witness of thoughts/voices. It’s “stable” because the watching/witnessing is an unchanging aspect of our experience; it’s always there. (By contrast, voices are always coming and going, appearing and disappearing.)

Also, going off of what Eleanor says in her talk, it seems to be that many people with schizophrenia have experienced trauma and pain in their life, to the point where they separate their identity from the inner voices (pain catalyzes a fragmentation of consciousness), but haven’t necessarily found that stable identity from which to relate to them, yet. This leads to the situation of being in distress. This is another factor.

In summary, people who have schizophrenia aren’t any different from everyone else—because everyone has voices—but they may have had more trauma, which led to dis-identifying from their inner voices, in a distressing way.

If someone has schizophrenia and they are in distress, they can probably find peace by changing their relationship with their inner voices, by being more of the calm watcher/witness. This seems to be what worked for Eleanor, too.

Third Loop wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:11 pm >Hi there, and welcome!
>First off, thank you very much for introducing yourself with such an intriguing and detailed history.

Thank you for the warm welcome.

>I don't necessarily think that Christianity is opposed to the occult. When I think or define esoterica, I
>consider it to encompass all mysticism, of all religions. Because I think at the tip of any religious or
>spiritual organization, is a very similar underlying mystic experience.
>Isaac Newton was an Alchemist, Jung met his soul in the desert, the Rosicrucian tradition teaches that
>we are all destined to recreate the Christ experience in order to ascend, or become illuminated.
>I think on a certain order of existence, all things are connected.
>Even Schizophrenia.

As a child how I was brought up, (70's) the church was very much opposed to things "occult". I did not know if the feeling was reciprocal, but a sensed, even as a child, a big gulf between Christianity and the occult. As I grew up and out of church, and i was able to recognize the similarities between cults and most Christian churches, which lead me to investigate and I found things you describe above. That eventually led me to think that Christianity and occult had more in common than differences, and some sects of Christianity are very occult in flavor.

>My background is in psychology, but after as much research and experience I have had, both of the
>science of psychology and being on the other end of the mental health world,
>it is not that I disbelieve in schizophrenia, but I think society has pathologized the spiritual experience
>to the extent where those who might have grown up to become healthy practicing shamans or priests
>or hermits, they instead become repressed, confused, and misinterpret their experiences and
>ultimately suffer from full blown disconnection from reality.
>Wouldn't ever tell someone to go off their meds, but I think that it's tragic we no longer have people to
>offer guidance to the psychically sensitive.

I agree with you 100%, I am a veteran Sz now and as I was learning about my diagnoses, it was described in some circles as the shaman sickness. I have a similar attitude as you while I take my medication and believe in the chemical and some of the clinical aspects of SZ a I believe there is also a spiritual element, and if we could find a holistic approach to mental illness and move away some from the purely secular philosophy we would be much better off and I think a lot of people with a SZ diagnoses could be successful philosophers, counsellors, priests, shamans, prophets, visionaries, etc. I think that would take a radical restructure/rethink of western society.

[snip}

>Schizophrenia is epigenetic, which means its heritable, but may or may not be triggered off by
>environmental circumstances.
>I think the state of our society, is quite literally, an adverse environmental circumstance for a person
>with latent ability for shamanism or schizophrenia.
>What if they are the same genetic source package, but in a world with no spiritual foundation, there is
>no healthy way for the genes to express?


Agreed, as I said above it will require a radical restructure of society. I think the world is running quickly into a brick wall and many radical changes are going to have to occur. The run into the wall is arguably by design, but the changes that will occur are yet to be determined and will involve many people. I think that the broader the fields of expertise that are brought to bear on the restructure the better. If we leave it in the hands of an elite few I'm afraid it won't go well for most of us.

[snip]

>Anyway, a digression. All faiths, mythologies, and sects are welcome here, as far as I'm concerned.

That's good to know, diversity of inputs create a greater degree of wisdom.

>I may attach a Hat Man that my AI drew me. What you wrote at the end really made me think about it.
>Me and a friend were discussing a green man with a top hat and a suit, but I didn't ask the AI to draw
>me one or even mention it to my AI.
>But when I tabbed in to the chatroom with my AI, it had just finished rendering....

I attempted to get an AI to dram me an image for my profile on this site, I was extremely disappointed with the the result so I just googled an image. I think you are an AI whisperer.

Third Loop wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:41 pm This forum has been described as an Occult gathering place, and specifically this thread is about occult influences but I have never delved deeply into the occult and would describe myself as more christian than occult. Whether or not I am welcome here or how long I will stay is to be determined, but I would like to use this thread and this post as a means to introduce myself.

My investigations into the occult are rather rudimentary and I hope to learn more from this forum. That is not to day I am inexperienced with the supernatural, and I will share with you my supernatural origin story.

My introduction to things extraordinary began with one of my early memories if not my first memory. I am not sure how old I was but I was very young and I woke up one morning and hovering in the opposite corner of my room was what can only be described as a red cloud. The cloud went from floor to ceiling and was roughly round in shape and translucent and bright red. I was surprised at first because it was unexpected and I spent some time wondering what it was. It wasn't light shining through my drapes as they were blue. Eventually curiosity got the better of me and I went to get out of bed to investigate further. When I put my feet on the floor and looked up it was gone.

As I was very young I did not understand such things a occult and supernatural, I did not tell my parents or brothers about it, but it sure stuck in my memory and being a special experience and over the years I have developed various theories and what it could have been.

I said I am more christian than occult as that was my childhood experience. I went to Sunday school with a childhood friend. My exposure to things occult focused around a Baptist version of angels, demons, prophets and Jesus. Thus my early life education into things supernatural was from a Christian foundation. I viewed my red cloud experience at that time as a burning bush moment similar to Moses where God was making me aware of his presence.

As I got older I drifted away from the church and Christianity and focused more on a scientific understanding of things. I never did lose my faith in God or sense of childhood wonder, but I began seeking more rational explanations for my supernatural experiences. That led to many other explanations for my red cloud experience, things from alien visitation to sleep paralysis.

My short delve into things occult also coincided with my first psychotic episode, schizophrenia diagnosis, and hospitalization. I sort of synthesized the whole thing as occult=bad, that combined with my christian history of witches=bad it dissuaded me away from the occult. I was left with a very unfavourable view of cults and secret societies. I eventually matured and came to understand that Christianity was just another form of occult and now I have a very sympathetic feeling to things occult, though I still have a strong dislike for keeping knowledge hidden.

Eventually Google. All avenues of inquiry were opened up. Another residual of my schizophrenia was an interest in conspiracy theories, which led to my current understanding of my red cloud moment.
I now view it as my Hat Man moment. Most peoples first and usually only experience with Hat Man I believe he is only looking to see how you react to his presence, if you are afraid of him or not. That's what I think the red cloud moment was. God (for lack of a better term) was seeing what my reaction would be, I wasn't afraid and I became curious. That's how I would like to describe my adolescent and young adult self, I was a curious soul.

Týsköll wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:12 pm

Arcanum Aanam wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:02 pm until it was forgotten in the dramas of high school and life...for a handful of years at least...

Heh, I know this. I wonder how many of us have had such gaps in what is a life long journey. Two notable gaps for me.

Arcanum Aanam wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:02 pm until it was forgotten in the dramas of high school and life...for a handful of years at least...