internet gurus rising

[Caylus Ark]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute, as in challenge you to answer the bolded portion without inserting my own opinion on the matter.
What specifically about black holes gives you the impression they've played a vital role in the evolution of our consciousness?

Two ways.
Beginning and ending.
They appear to play an important role in the formation of galaxies which stars and systems are born from. Without the formation of complex star systems such as our own, in large quantities, with satellites aligned to a horizontal plane, life may not have emerged. Not as we know it, anyhow.
They may also play a role in drawing consciousness near, not just matter, by being poised as the longstanding and ultimate mystery within the cosmos whos powers consciousness must fight on a galactic scale to obtain answers to and behold.
Formation, conclusion.

Well, you're saying that because they helped create the solar system we live in, they are an important part of our history.
But I think that's one of the least interesting or impressive qualities of black holes.
Black holes defy and smash physics. They function outside of time and space. They divide by zero. They create infinite impressions of everything that happens to cross their event horizons.
Black holes are fucking incredible, but not because they are involved in the goldilocks effect of earth.
I don't know precisely what you mean by black holes drawing consciousness near, but if what you meant is that they invite mystery into people's lives, I guess that's a cute or okay quality, but c'mon.
We're talking about the most titanic behemoth terrifying predators in the entire solar system, and the best thing they've contributed is the goldilocks effect and generating interest in life's mysteries?

[Neo]

Black holes defy and smash physics. They function outside of time and space. They divide by zero. They create infinite impressions of everything that happens to cross their event horizons.

You agree, but are being disagreeable.
To understand a black hole you first have to understand the nature of our universe itself.

[Caylus Ark]

Black holes defy and smash physics. They function outside of time and space. They divide by zero. They create infinite impressions of everything that happens to cross their event horizons.

You agree, but are being disagreeable.
To understand a black hole you first have to understand the nature of our universe itself.

I am not "being disagreeable", friend.
I am simply poking you to see the extent of your knowledge, because I am curious.

[Neo]

I am not "being disagreeable", friend.
I am simply poking you to see the extent of your knowledge, because I am curious.

The best way to do that might be to add to the conversation, rather than detract from it.

The biggest mystery about black holes is their role in the grand scheme of the universe. Some believe they are portals to other dimensions or realms of existence, while others see them as cosmic garbage disposals, sucking in all matter and energy until nothing remains.

Archetypically, black holes can be seen as symbols of transformation and rebirth. They represent the void, the unknown, and the unknowable, inviting us to let go of our ego and surrender to the mysteries of the universe.

There comes events in our lives we must embrace the horizon of the unknown and let go of the need for control. This can mean taking risks and trying new things, even if it means stepping into the void and facing our darkest fears. It can also mean letting go of attachments and ego-driven desires, and instead surrendering to the flow of the universe. Ultimately, the black hole invites us to trust in the unknown and embrace the transformative power of the void. What choice do you have whence gravity takes over?

It is not advisable to astral project inside a black hole, as the intense gravitational forces would likely result in the disintegration of the astral body. Others believe that the experience could be more akin to traveling through a wormhole or portal, leading to a completely different realm or dimension, but it's likely that there would be no way back.

For the record; black holes aren't holograms.
The "holographic principal" is a theory in which the volumetric contents of a blackhole are encoded on it's surface.

[Týsköll]

Also the idea "we aren't moving through the world", but rather, "the world is moving through us". When your avatar walks in a game, they are rendering their avatar through the virtual environment, rather than actually affecting their physical location in the virtual environment. rather the environment, which isn't even constructed until the player makes it "pop in" - is experienced by the game player very similarly to the "measurement problem" of quantum physics. It's there, yes, but not as visual sensory data like we often imagine it is, hard and concrete and just waiting there.

I'll cherry pick this for now and possibly add more to the rest of your post later.

Are you certain this is true? In programming and developing 3D environments that are object orientated they most assuredly do each have a Vector3 position and a rotation, that position and rotation does indeed change as players, NPCs and other objects navigate the environment. (is this still true at machine code level? Dunno, can we get someone to read streaming machine code whilst I play an MMO plz? kthx). All that said, it is a simulation of position and rotation. We can also track said objects in the time dimension. (since gamestart)

Regarding a renderer, yes it's true the objects in the environment do not render (exist in that way) until they exist within the player's camera frustum. They do exist in another form though and any other frustum observing said object will cause it to exist for that camera, to be rendered.

"Frustums are used to determine what is inside the camera's field of view. They help speed up the rendering process - objects which lie outside a camera's frustum can safely be excluded from rendering." - this is visible to the developer when building the game; but you might've seen objects pop in in a badly coded game or a variant of this is the view distance pop-ins in a large environment.

Anyway, the point you're making is what I was getting at with the little play on "the observer is the renderer" yeah. Bodies and brains as the hardware and consciousness as the software, eyes (and other physical sensing bits) each having their own "frustum's"; though I think each piece of sensing hardware would have it's own frustum rather than the hardware being the frustum.

If a tree falls in the woods?
Yes, all associated events occur. They just weren't rendered by anyone. "They weren't brought in to focus" might be a good way of putting this.

Ugh I need more coffee for this probably.

[Caylus Ark]

Also the idea "we aren't moving through the world", but rather, "the world is moving through us". When your avatar walks in a game, they are rendering their avatar through the virtual environment, rather than actually affecting their physical location in the virtual environment. rather the environment, which isn't even constructed until the player makes it "pop in" - is experienced by the game player very similarly to the "measurement problem" of quantum physics. It's there, yes, but not as visual sensory data like we often imagine it is, hard and concrete and just waiting there.

I'll cherry pick this for now and possibly add more to the rest of your post later.

Are you certain this is true? In programming and developing 3D environments that are object orientated they most assuredly do each have a Vector3 position and a rotation, that position and rotation does indeed change as players, NPCs and other objects navigate the environment. (is this still true at machine code level? Dunno, can we get someone to read streaming machine code whilst I play an MMO plz? kthx). All that said, it is a simulation of position and rotation. We can also track said objects in the time dimension. (since gamestart)

Regarding a renderer, yes it's true the objects in the environment do not render (exist in that way) until they exist within the player's camera frustum. They do exist in another form though and any other frustum observing said object will cause it to exist for that camera, to be rendered.

"Frustums are used to determine what is inside the camera's field of view. They help speed up the rendering process - objects which lie outside a camera's frustum can safely be excluded from rendering." - this is visible to the developer when building the game; but you might've seen objects pop in in a badly coded game or a variant of this is the view distance pop-ins in a large environment.

Anyway, the point you're making is what I was getting at with the little play on "the observer is the renderer" yeah. Bodies and brains as the hardware and consciousness as the software, eyes (and other physical sensing bits) each having their own "frustum's"; though I think each piece of sensing hardware would have it's own frustum rather than the hardware being the frustum.

If a tree falls in the woods?
Yes, all associated events occur. They just weren't rendered by anyone. "They weren't brought in to focus" might be a good way of putting this.

Ugh I need more coffee for this probably.

I believe I did speak to that. Yes, there is information that exists in a non-rendered form about the data that will exist as soon as it is needed, but it is not in the same sensory format when existing in the gameworld without a player there. It doesn't exist as say, a tree that is on another continent that the player hasn't reached yet. it exists as a reference to envinronmental data or a metaprofile that tells the system what map to render when a player happens upon the instance where the map exists


I think my point was more to the fact that the environment exists for the benefit of the user. I think thinking about holographic reality, that's what it is. All of the data does exist, and it is all contained on any particle no matter how small. But the data doesn't necessarily exist in the format matching our everyday experiences, yet we think only in the format of our everyday experiences.

Black holes smash that paradigm, revealing to us that our understanding is at best, quite inadequate.

[Caylus Ark]

I am not "being disagreeable", friend.
I am simply poking you to see the extent of your knowledge, because I am curious.

The best way to do that might be to add to the conversation, rather than detract from it.

I'm pretty sure I have added to this conversation.

[Týsköll]

Also the idea "we aren't moving through the world", but rather, "the world is moving through us". When your avatar walks in a game, they are rendering their avatar through the virtual environment, rather than actually affecting their physical location in the virtual environment. rather the environment, which isn't even constructed until the player makes it "pop in" - is experienced by the game player very similarly to the "measurement problem" of quantum physics. It's there, yes, but not as visual sensory data like we often imagine it is, hard and concrete and just waiting there.

I'll cherry pick this for now and possibly add more to the rest of your post later.

Are you certain this is true? In programming and developing 3D environments that are object orientated they most assuredly do each have a Vector3 position and a rotation, that position and rotation does indeed change as players, NPCs and other objects navigate the environment. (is this still true at machine code level? Dunno, can we get someone to read streaming machine code whilst I play an MMO plz? kthx). All that said, it is a simulation of position and rotation. We can also track said objects in the time dimension. (since gamestart)

Regarding a renderer, yes it's true the objects in the environment do not render (exist in that way) until they exist within the player's camera frustum. They do exist in another form though and any other frustum observing said object will cause it to exist for that camera, to be rendered.

"Frustums are used to determine what is inside the camera's field of view. They help speed up the rendering process - objects which lie outside a camera's frustum can safely be excluded from rendering." - this is visible to the developer when building the game; but you might've seen objects pop in in a badly coded game or a variant of this is the view distance pop-ins in a large environment.

Anyway, the point you're making is what I was getting at with the little play on "the observer is the renderer" yeah. Bodies and brains as the hardware and consciousness as the software, eyes (and other physical sensing bits) each having their own "frustum's"; though I think each piece of sensing hardware would have it's own frustum rather than the hardware being the frustum.

If a tree falls in the woods?
Yes, all associated events occur. They just weren't rendered by anyone. "They weren't brought in to focus" might be a good way of putting this.

Ugh I need more coffee for this probably.

I believe I did speak to that. Yes, there is information that exists in a non-rendered form about the data that will exist as soon as it is needed, but it is not in the same sensory format when existing in the gameworld without a player there. It doesn't exist as say, a tree that is on another continent that the player hasn't reached yet. it exists as a reference to envinronmental data or a metaprofile that tells the system what map to render when a player happens upon the instance where the map exists


I think my point was more to the fact that the environment exists for the benefit of the user. I think thinking about holographic reality, that's what it is. All of the data does exist, and it is all contained on any particle no matter how small. But the data doesn't necessarily exist in the format matching our everyday experiences, yet we think only in the format of our everyday experiences.

Black holes smash that paradigm, revealing to us that our understanding is at best, quite inadequate.

"It doesn't exist as say, a tree that is on another continent that the player hasn't reached yet. it exists as a reference to envinronmental data or a metaprofile that tells the system what map to render when a player happens upon the instance where the map exists"
Yeah like in game worlds, what to render (tree model) in what state (position, rotation, scale) what colour and texture, etc. is all in that data waiting to be passed to the renderer.
(I think we're saying the same thing, if not the same page - the same chapter )

"But the data doesn't necessarily exist in the format matching our everyday experiences, yet we think only in the format of our everyday experiences."
The client can only render and interact with what it has been coded to do. Server admin on the other hand can interact in entirely different ways that the end user client can never. Unless we reality hack.

"Black holes smash that paradigm, revealing to us that our understanding is at best, quite inadequate."
Only birds could fly, until understanding of aerodynamics. We'll understand eventually. Probably.

[Caylus Ark]

I'll cherry pick this for now and possibly add more to the rest of your post later.

Are you certain this is true? In programming and developing 3D environments that are object orientated they most assuredly do each have a Vector3 position and a rotation, that position and rotation does indeed change as players, NPCs and other objects navigate the environment. (is this still true at machine code level? Dunno, can we get someone to read streaming machine code whilst I play an MMO plz? kthx). All that said, it is a simulation of position and rotation. We can also track said objects in the time dimension. (since gamestart)

Regarding a renderer, yes it's true the objects in the environment do not render (exist in that way) until they exist within the player's camera frustum. They do exist in another form though and any other frustum observing said object will cause it to exist for that camera, to be rendered.

"Frustums are used to determine what is inside the camera's field of view. They help speed up the rendering process - objects which lie outside a camera's frustum can safely be excluded from rendering." - this is visible to the developer when building the game; but you might've seen objects pop in in a badly coded game or a variant of this is the view distance pop-ins in a large environment.

Anyway, the point you're making is what I was getting at with the little play on "the observer is the renderer" yeah. Bodies and brains as the hardware and consciousness as the software, eyes (and other physical sensing bits) each having their own "frustum's"; though I think each piece of sensing hardware would have it's own frustum rather than the hardware being the frustum.

If a tree falls in the woods?
Yes, all associated events occur. They just weren't rendered by anyone. "They weren't brought in to focus" might be a good way of putting this.

Ugh I need more coffee for this probably.

I believe I did speak to that. Yes, there is information that exists in a non-rendered form about the data that will exist as soon as it is needed, but it is not in the same sensory format when existing in the gameworld without a player there. It doesn't exist as say, a tree that is on another continent that the player hasn't reached yet. it exists as a reference to envinronmental data or a metaprofile that tells the system what map to render when a player happens upon the instance where the map exists


I think my point was more to the fact that the environment exists for the benefit of the user. I think thinking about holographic reality, that's what it is. All of the data does exist, and it is all contained on any particle no matter how small. But the data doesn't necessarily exist in the format matching our everyday experiences, yet we think only in the format of our everyday experiences.

Black holes smash that paradigm, revealing to us that our understanding is at best, quite inadequate.

"It doesn't exist as say, a tree that is on another continent that the player hasn't reached yet. it exists as a reference to envinronmental data or a metaprofile that tells the system what map to render when a player happens upon the instance where the map exists"
Yeah like in game worlds, what to render (tree model) in what state (position, rotation, scale) what colour and texture, etc. is all in that data waiting to be passed to the renderer.
(I think we're saying the same thing, if not the same page - the same chapter )

"But the data doesn't necessarily exist in the format matching our everyday experiences, yet we think only in the format of our everyday experiences."
The client can only render and interact with what it has been coded to do. Server admin on the other hand can interact in entirely different ways that the end user client can never. Unless we reality hack.

"Black holes smash that paradigm, revealing to us that our understanding is at best, quite inadequate."
Only birds could fly, until understanding of aerodynamics. We'll understand eventually. Probably.

When we finally understand black holes, I suspect the prerequisite foundation for said understanding will be extremely upending compared to the current paradigm. to say the same thing more simply, I think the fact that black holes break physics means the model is quite imperfect.
You would think that would encourage academics to think in more creative ways, but alas, we keep probing for theoretical particles by smashing things together at high speeds, hoping the next quantum soap bubble will show us how to shower and shave.

I digress though. yes, in most ways I think we are saying the same thing
ideal magicians and ideal scientists are both the proverbial system admin or system hackers of reality's backrooms
and ideal of the ideal, magic and science reach a state of equilibrium, creative science and electromagnetic magic

[Caylus Ark]